nceuro.org Forum Index nceuro.org
North Carolina European Car Club
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

VIR Oil slick spinfest
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nceuro.org Forum Index -> Track Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Rigmaster
Postmaster General


Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 2264
Location: Elm Grove Farm, NC (near Clayton)

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David W wrote:
jon328 wrote:
Damn! I don't recall seeing that hit in the first video. With the way the e36 came flying across the grass like that I wonder if the hit kept him from rolling - the ground drops off from the track on the outside of T1, doesn't it?


in Les' video, i think that was Tom Tice that went flying by in a red spec e36 and ended up in a tire wall...in Rob's video you can see Tom's car off in the distance and it's another red spec e36 that hits Sri's car...really unfortunate and scary incident and luckily no one was seriously injured...


Yes, it was Tom Tice who went by Les' car and ended up in the tire wall, then as Sri was making his way around T1, fairly conservatively it appears, the other red E36 slides backwards into the passenger side of Sri's car.

Sri posted this morning on FB that he's hurting pretty bad from the hit, no broken bones or other obvious injuries, but he went and had a CT Scan yesterday to make sure everything was OK and he's hitting the pain meds to make things manageable.


This is racing and shit happens, but I'm thinking it might be a good idea to make comp school participants watch a bunch of these videos to see just how quickly the shit can hit the fan, and even when no one gets badly hurt, it can still cause alot of damage and $$$$$ repair bills to race cars.

I know there were alot of factors that came into play with this particular incident, but I really don't think everyone realizes how quickly things happen until it's too late, and then it's.....well, too late.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stack
Asphalt Ventures


Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1600
Location: New Bern, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After seeing Rob's video... I'm convinced this was more of a flagging error than anything. (Although any situation this bad includes a sum of much smaller mistakes.)

To me, a debris flag alone means there is something on the track, but has not yet caused any problems. The debris flag itself indicates no immediate danger (just potential danger because of the debris). The debris flag should have been standing along with a waving yellow flag indicating hazardous conditions with competitors in danger zones. At the time of Rob's video, there were already at least two close-calls and one hard impact. Covering it with the Turn 1 station would not be enough IMO.
_________________
Stacy (Stack) King
Owner/Manager -- Asphalt Ventures ... www.asphaltventures.com[/i]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
Phatbus
Forum Addict


Joined: 07 Jul 2008
Posts: 696
Location: Raleigh

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

During my novice participation in HPDE sessions, they wave the debris flag when it starts raining. Although it means slippery course too. Now that I've seen these videos I wish that they didn't do this. As a newb on the track, in a way, it desensitizes you to a "real debris situation" weather it's a fender or a go-go gadget oil slick. What if it is starting to rain and there is an oil slick, I think there are a bunch of novices that wouldn't slow down as much as they would need to because they think it is just for a light sprinkle. We all know that is not the correct train of thought.
I guess if this happened during an HPDE, they pit the whole course.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
David W
Former HPDE Champion


Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Posts: 5195
Location: Raleigh

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stack wrote:
After seeing Rob's video... I'm convinced this was more of a flagging error than anything. (Although any situation this bad includes a sum of much smaller mistakes.)


not saying the flaggers/officials did everything perfectly, but imo if this was 'more of a flagging error than anything', there would have probably been a LOT more cars damaged...the fact that a large majority of the cars made it through without incident leads me to believe the flags were, at the very least, adequate to alert most of the drivers of the situation...Randy Mueller was one of the very fist cars through the area and made it through fine as did many others...in Rob's video, they came through well after the oil was put down and him and sri were on their way to making it through unscathed until another car lost it in the oil and hit Sri...

why did some drivers make it through fine while others ended up in the grass/tire wall/smashing other cars?

i'm sure things could have been handled differently/better but we cant just lay this one on the flaggers...
_________________
Take your driving to the Next Level
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
e30rapidic
Forum Addict


Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Posts: 549
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David W wrote:


i'm sure things could have been handled differently/better but we cant just lay this one on the flaggers...


gotta agree here. We're quick to blame the flagger but they can't see everything at all times from that stand.

Hate that it happened and people stuff got torn up but unfortunately that is part of racing. Hits the wallet pretty hard but a good thing there were no serious injuries. Makes one realize that safety equipment is oh so important.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
EvanM5
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 11388
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David W wrote:

why did some drivers make it through fine while others ended up in the grass/tire wall/smashing other cars?


That sums it up for me. The whole incident can be broken down to any number of mistakes, but the bottom line is the majority of cars actually made it through fine. To me that's an indication that this was not an unavoidable problem, and that those drivers saw warning and took appropriate action.

While there may be some issues with that flag location, situational awareness could have been better for some folks.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Stack
Asphalt Ventures


Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1600
Location: New Bern, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@David & Evan... maybe I'm trying to hard to be nice Confused

I would venture to say that the debris, or "surface condition", flag could be the most misunderstood flag in use. But without more information...
    how does BMWCCA treat the debris flag?
    how do they "teach" the debris flag to drivers?
    is it reviewed in the drivers meeting?
    same thing for yellow flags covering off-track cars...

We can only speculate about any aspect.

But I agree (and I think I said as much in an earlier post) that obviously, some people saw and heeded the flag that was being shown... and/or had better vision / track awareness / experience to stay safe in that situation.

Phatbus wrote:
During my novice participation in HPDE sessions, they wave the debris flag when it starts raining. Although it means slippery course too. Now that I've seen these videos I wish that they didn't do this. As a newb on the track, in a way, it desensitizes you to a "real debris situation" weather it's a fender or a go-go gadget oil slick. What if it is starting to rain and there is an oil slick, I think there are a bunch of novices that wouldn't slow down as much as they would need to because they think it is just for a light sprinkle. We all know that is not the correct train of thought.
I guess if this happened during an HPDE, they pit the whole course.


As I know it now... the distinction should be in how the flag is displayed. Dangerous fluid should prompt a "rocking" motion (think of a standing flag, but rocked between "10 & 2") like what appears to be happening in Rob's video... if it's simple dirt or avoidable car parts, it's a standing flag... and I imagine, if the track surface is covered in dangerous material (fluid, body panels, etc) that would be hard to avoid, maybe it would be waving at that point.

Problem is, it seems to vary from club to club.

But I'm still concerned at the LACK of any yellow flags in this situation. A car track right by the worker station, and at least one car in the tire wall should have prompted at the very least a standing yellow flag. Combined with the debris flag, maybe those drivers that "got caught out" would have heeded the warnings a little closer?
_________________
Stacy (Stack) King
Owner/Manager -- Asphalt Ventures ... www.asphaltventures.com[/i]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
EvanM5
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 11388
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stack wrote:

    how does BMWCCA treat the debris flag?
    how do they "teach" the debris flag to drivers?
    is it reviewed in the drivers meeting?
    same thing for yellow flags covering off-track cars...

We can only speculate about any aspect.


If you're competition licensed you shouldn't need any reminders that any debris flag, or yellow flag, held in any position, means you need to get your head in the game real quick and be ready to react to something abnormal.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
David W
Former HPDE Champion


Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Posts: 5195
Location: Raleigh

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stack wrote:
I would venture to say that the debris, or "surface condition", flag could be the most misunderstood flag in use.

agreed...

Quote:
But without more information...
how does BMWCCA treat the debris flag?

from the bmwcca club racing rules:
K. Debris Flag/Surface Condition Flag
1. Categories: Advisory, Local
2. Description: A motionless flag with yellow and red vertical stripes that can be displayed from any manned flag station around the course.
3. Uses: This is a local condition advisory that indicates a slippery surface exists (such as oil), or debris may be present on the track surface. Caution is advised. [Note: If debris is large, heavy, in the racing line, and/or otherwise presents itself as a hazard that will cause significant damage to a car, a Yellow Flag may be used along with, or in place of, the Debris Flag

Quote:
how do they "teach" the debris flag to drivers?

in the CR schools, we teach to basically raise your awareness level when you see a debris flag and be aware that it might be fluid on line, that you might not see...in general we emphasize how important the motion of flags (standing, rocking, waving, rapidly waving, etc) and body language of the corner workers is...

Quote:
is it reviewed in the drivers meeting?

it might be covered in some racer's meetings but honestly flags should not need to be covered in a racer's meeting...if you are racing, you really should know what all of the flags mean without someone reminding you...you should also know any differences in flagging rules between the sanctioning bodies that you are racing with...

Quote:
same thing for yellow flags covering off-track cars...

basically the same answers as the debris flag...it's in the rules and you should know them if you are racing (unfortunately a lot of people might not)

Quote:
But I agree (and I think I said as much in an earlier post) that obviously, some people saw and heeded the flag that was being shown... and/or had better vision / track awareness / experience to stay safe in that situation.

i got lucky years ago in a very similar situation (someone blew up at the end of the front straight at vir)...i was lucky because i was chasing down a very experienced racer and he immediately went off line when he saw the flag...the next time around, there was a car upside down against the T1 corner station...i learned a lot from that experience
_________________
Take your driving to the Next Level
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address
ProCoach
Learner's Permit


Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 113
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvanM5 wrote:
Stack wrote:

    how does BMWCCA treat the debris flag?
    how do they "teach" the debris flag to drivers?
    is it reviewed in the drivers meeting?
    same thing for yellow flags covering off-track cars...

We can only speculate about any aspect.


If you're competition licensed you shouldn't need any reminders that any debris flag, or yellow flag, held in any position, means you need to get your head in the game real quick and be ready to react to something abnormal.


Back when James and DaveW went through Comp school, the debris flag was taught as a "surface condition" flag, an advisory and cautionary flag that required heightened attention by all drivers coming up on the affected area. That's how they STILL teach it at Comp Schools today!

I remember the first time I hit oil at LRP. Came around so fast I thought something had broken. I can "see" oil on-track now, and teach reading the track so that drivers run less risk of getting caught up in this type of $h!t.

The workers were on top of this. I was listening to the radio on the grid waiting for the next race when I heard T1 ask start/finish to back them up. It was a bad deal, for sure.
_________________
"The driver is the greatest variable in the high performance driving equation"
(919) 740-1871
www.peterkrause.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
sri
Learner's Permit


Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 186
Location: Oak Ridge, NC

PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with David, atleast by the the time Rob and I went through the start finish line there was a debris flag, yellow flag and the one to go. Pat spikes was by the wall waving frantically for the cars to slow down. I was looking up and scanned four or so cars off track and slowed down and made it through. Well I thought I diid till I saw a rear bumper and tail light in my passenger window. The guy who hit me came and spoke to me and was sorry. I asked him "did you slow down, see the flags?" His responce was "when the drbris flag was thrown earlier (There was a peice of a car on track)he did and two cars past him". I did not say anything else because it would have not been nice. Did he not know that when the yellow flag is out that no one can pass him, to look up and seel the cars all over the field and tire wall like I did? Well what is done is done my cars driver door will not open or close and is curved like a banana. My parts car is on its transformation to becoming the new race car. Most of all we all walked away from this. We must all learn to respect the flags so we can all race another day.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nceuro.org Forum Index -> Track Events All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group