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Road racing for noobs
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David W
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wes you forgot to mention the main reason for doing DE's, its FUN!!!

suck displacement, biatch wrote:
Although I have seen some red groups get pretty dicey...


its still not even close...i've gone out and done some lead-follow with another club racer at a DE (in an advanced group) before and we were really just out playing around (not really pushing it) but we still got some comments from others that we were scaring people (and we were making sure to be mindful/courteous of other drivers)...oops...

its really tough to imagine how intense w2w racing is...many people described what it was like to me but words just cant describe it...imagine pushing the car as hard as you can for an entire session in a DE, now increase the intesisty by a magnitude of 10...its a huge adrenaline rush for the entire race...
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dejablu311
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

great info guys. well i guess i see what i learn and how comfy i feel in the hot seat and take it from there.

As far as jumping right into racing, I don't think i would want to do it..........not unless i was very rich and could afford to buy a new race car every race. Besides i don't think i have the skills to begin with. I have never done anything like a road course before. I would think that the minimal amount of expeience that a DE gives you would be mandatory.


Not to mention i wouldn't want to be "that guy" on the track. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL....I'm sure you'll have a blast out there!

David W wrote:
wes you forgot to mention the main reason for doing DE's, its FUN!!!


Umm...yea...it's fun too! Laughing
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David W
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dejablu311 wrote:
Besides i don't think i have the skills to begin with. I have never done anything like a road course before. I would think that the minimal amount of expeience that a DE gives you would be mandatory.


sounds like you have the right attitude for DE's already!! the first thing you usually learn is that you know a lot less about driving than you thought you did, it can be a very humbling experience...

DE's will give you more than just a "minimal amount of experience", you'll learn a ton! Wink
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dejablu311
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay now that all that is settled, what about car prep. I have a set of stock 18's that i plan on using with a new set of falken 615's (figure they are hard enough to get me through a full year of track and auto x use). I also plan to have a set of axis pads and SS lines with the pretty looking blue fluid. Very Happy

Are my brakes going to live? They have no prob with the auto x's cuz the longest i go at one time is a min and then they can cool down. I don't know about the track though.

Any reasons why the rubber i picked may not be suitable? I have heard that its not a good idea for a noob to get out on the track with R spec rubber because there is less warning before it breaks loose. The Falkens are supposed to not be quite as unforgiving as say a set of hoosiers but still quite a bit stickier the the toyo T1R's i run on the street. The reason i want stickier in the first place is because of auto cross. I am stuck in ASP with all the supercharged C5 vettes that have waaaaay more power then me. I need all the help i can get.
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David W
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dejablu311 wrote:
okay now that all that is settled, what about car prep. I have a set of stock 18's that i plan on using with a new set of falken 615's (figure they are hard enough to get me through a full year of track and auto x use). I also plan to have a set of axis pads and SS lines with the pretty looking blue fluid. Very Happy

you should be fine with the 18's and those tires...for your first few events you should be fine on street (or mild track) pads...i personally dont like super blue because it stains eveything, i use ATE typ 200 (its the same stuff as super blue, its just not blue)...

Quote:
Are my brakes going to live? They have no prob with the auto x's cuz the longest i go at one time is a min and then they can cool down. I don't know about the track though.

they should be ok but you may cook them...at first, you'll be braking too much and too long so you might have some problems overheating pads/fluid...i wouldnt worry too much about having the fastest/best/latest stuff as a beginner (too many people get caught up in that) but you might want to bring a set of spare pads and some extra fluid...

Quote:
Any reasons why the rubber i picked may not be suitable? I have heard that its not a good idea for a noob to get out on the track with R spec rubber because there is less warning before it breaks loose.

any tire should be fine as long as it is in good shape...i did my first DE on a set of crappy continental all-seasons...i was told you could hear them the entire way around roebling...

beginners on R-comps is just a bad idea...not necessarily because they give less warning (most give plenty of warning if you know what to "look" for, there's just not usually any audible feedback) but it is a factor...r-comps raise the performance envelope so if something does go wrong, you will be moving faster and will get in more trouble...they also will help mask driver errors (just like HP does)...another factor is that the higher grip levels of r-comps can wear parts out quicker (brake pads, suspension bits, etc) and if you arent strapped in, it will throw you around more...you're better off learning to drive on what you have and not worrying about being fast (being fast will come with learning)....i think i did 10 DE's before i went to R-comps and would probably have waited longer but it was a timing thing...

Quote:
The Falkens are supposed to not be quite as unforgiving as say a set of hoosiers

lol, those tires are in different leagues in terms of grip (i think hoosiers are pretty forgiving though) Wink
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911junkie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David hit on most of it.

As far as prep, be sure to be prepared mentally for a long weekend. You'll be amazed at how drained (mentally) you will be at the end of the day. And you get to do it all over again the next day! (Don't worry, it's FUN! Wink)

FWIW, I have about 8 or 9 DE's under my belt and I'll be running T1R's at the next event. The car is pretty set up to take on anything, but I still have a lot to learn with this car, and it just makes more sense to drive street tires and learn to smoke the crap out of them before going to a stickier tire. There's a lot that goes into getting around the road course fast (corners, braking, when to get on the gas, etc), this is all easier to learn with a good set of street tires vs. a set of r-compound.

As much as I would LOVE to throw on a set of R's...(trust me, I am very tempted...) some part of me continues to adhere, and pay attention, to the advice that is given to me from guys that a) have been doing this longer than I have, and b) are better than I am.

Slicks are just an entirely different story. I guess unless you are racing, or perhaps for DE's, are intent on getting the FASTEST time possible around the course, then slicks are OK for DE's. I see a LOT of guys running slicks at DE's. In fact, probably 9/10 cars on track in the intermediate and advanced groups are running slicks. But that doesn't necessary make them right. Some are great racecar drivers and drivers who have had lots of DE experience...and then there are the drivers that need the latest and greatest, and those are the guys you see in the tirewall after the first yellow lap in the early hours.

This forum serves as a great medium for info re: the subject. I won't even attempt to commit that I know everything about the subject, in fact, I'm a n00b just like yourself and learn more everytime I go. But there are others that know quite a bit about the circuit and can answer any questions you may have. Not only that, but there seems to be a pretty good NCEuro.org showing at the first few events so far, so you'll be among (good?) friends. Very Happy

And one other item: Water, paper towels, blue painters tape, windex, and a good portable chair are just as important as car prep! Wink
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i///mraspy
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is great info fellas....cause I don't know Jack about road courses..
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dejablu311
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

suck displacement, biatch wrote:
And one other item: Water, paper towels, blue painters tape, windex, and a good portable chair are just as important as car prep! Wink


Indeed this stuff i know from auto x.
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IN.FLT
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok… I will post on this subject as a noob also.

I have around 8 or 9 of these events under my belt. I will try to convey the route I took and what I learned from it thus far.

I could have gone and added coilovers, brakes and tires right away, but I would not have known which one made each difference and how it affected my driving.

My first event was at Summit Point. It’s a fairly small and rough track, but excellent to learn on. There is really only one area to get a lot of speed, which means the rest of the track was great for learning the technical aspects. My car was completely stock. First things first, the stock suspension allowed a good amount of body roll. The result of this was that I had to be a VERY SMOOTH driver. There was a lot of me having to allow the car to settle into the turn. I can’t tell you how much this has helped me. The second big thing was the tires. I was sliding allll over the place! If there had been snow… I would have plowed it! Finally the third big thing was brakes. I went with stock pads and fluid. I think it’s fair to say the German cars in general come with some pretty beefy brakes, and these were….for about 3 laps. I like knowing that I have good brakes… it is a big thing with me. Stopping is good!

My second event was at VIR. VIR is a great track and I was excited to see what I would learn from it. By this time I had switched to some better tires, brake pads and fluid. I wanted to leave the suspension alone, as I wanted to learn from it on a higher speed track. Well learn I did, the same lesson! VERY SMOOTH… or you will get bitten. The uphill esses were insane! The car looked like a ship in a windy sea! But I just focused on being smooth, not on trying to be fast or keep up with others. After about 3 or 4 laps, the brakes started getting mushy and I needed to let them cool off a little. The fluid was doing fine, but the heat in it was causing my stock rubber lines to expand when I was pressing the pedal. Wasn’t a very good feeling. The suspension I could deal with. The tires had their limits, but were better than what I had before! The brakes were holding me back.

I ordered some Stainless Steel brake lines and put them on. I also installed a new suspension. I went with an H&R Cup Kit. This car was a daily driver and I did 3-4 events a year. This kit has proven to be a good compromise between the two. Over the next several events I played around with different braking rotors and pads and finally think I got them figured out.

I was at VIR last October. I had the cup kit, Falken Azenis, SS brake lines ATE Type 200 fluid. ATE powerslot rotors and Hawk Blue Pads….

I will never run on track again with out Hawk Blues (or a similar track pad)…This was the first time I ran where everything felt realllly good. The brake were there 100% of the time. No icy feeling under the pedal after a couple laps. The tires had greattt grip and just seemed to bite more as the laps went on ( can’t wait to try R’s someday ) and the suspension, although still a little wavy, is much tighter and more responsive.

If I were you the first thing I would do is order a set of SS brake lines, some fluid and a full set of rotors and Hawk Blues. Keep the rotors and pads together and put them on when you’re at the track, then just swap your stock stuff back on when you leave.(Also make sure you wash your car good after using the track pads) I would think all of that should cost a little less than $ 500. But trust me, it’s worth every penny! Tires would be my next thing followed by suspension.

Power has never been big on my list because I just don’t have the skills to maximize the use of it all yet. I rode a session with David while at VIR in October. His car is not some insane power beast. I think he said he had some cams, injectors and intake? It wasn’t very much…but his suspension was awesome! Now sure he could have taken 10g and put it into the engine and probably be running around with 500 hp… but the suspension wouldn’t be there to handle it. That’s why, with me in the car, he was running lap times within a second or so of a Challenge Ferrari that was out there!

Suspension is up to you. BMW’s have a really good suspension from the factory. It’s certainly good enough for you to learn on and research on what you would like to get.

When you’re at an event, try to get the instructor to show you different lines around the track and see which feels better to you. Don’t try to be faster than someone else just because you think your car should be. You never know what has been done to a car or who is driving it. I saw an experienced driver pass STi’s with a Pontiac Sunfire !!!! I’m not even joking either! Remember to always be smooth and paying attention at all times. It will be a little nerve racking at first, but once you get a couple events under your belt you will really begin to enjoy them and that’s when you reallllly start learning. I have so much left to learn just so I can have half a clue whats going on Wink~ But you gotta start somewhere! I hope this helps..if only just a little.

Jason
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ncbimma
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice write up!
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David W
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Jason, nice to see you on the forums!

I agree with everything you've said here, well put!

IN.FLT wrote:
I rode a session with David while at VIR in October. His car is not some insane power beast. I think he said he had some cams, injectors and intake? It wasn’t very much…but his suspension was awesome! Now sure he could have taken 10g and put it into the engine and probably be running around with 500 hp… but the suspension wouldn’t be there to handle it. That’s why, with me in the car, he was running lap times within a second or so of a Challenge Ferrari that was out there!

in the class i race in, putting the money into the suspension will make the car a lot faster than just adding power...its nice to have a few extra ponies but a properly setup suspension and good driving makes the biggest difference...hope you enjoyed the ride! Wink

Quote:
I saw an experienced driver pass STi’s with a Pontiac Sunfire !!!!

riding in that car was the most fun i've had in the passenger seat in a long time...i was literaly laughing my ass off the entire way around the track...it was a rental car too, lol
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kinda like the evo passin the gallardo Laughing
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911junkie
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or dare I say...wagon on the track??





I like this one too. did it full size...see if you can spot me...
(hint: look for what looks like a truck) What was I thinking? Wink


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dejablu311
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hahaha. thats great pic. yeah ya kinda stick out a little.
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