nceuro.org Forum Index nceuro.org
North Carolina European Car Club
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Asphalt Ventures Advanced Lapping Day (CMP)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nceuro.org Forum Index -> Track Events
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
shiza40
Forum Addict


Joined: 13 Dec 2006
Posts: 899
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah...I gave your Mom a whole new spin on the world too.

Don't you have some rims to screw up...I mean paint.
_________________

http://www.blackforestindustries.com/
"Motorsports...an addiction only overcome by poverty"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
EvanM5
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 11388
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiza40 wrote:
Yeah...I gave your Mom a whole new spin on the world too.

Don't you have some rims to screw up...I mean paint.


Laughing
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Eric1H
Training Wheeler


Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiza40 wrote:
Horched wrote:
Heh, yeah. I had to ding him on the eval because he made his other student's wife sick during a ride along....quite hilarious.


A note to everyone...if you are ever giving a ride-along to someone and they ask you "how much longer are we going to be out here?", pull in the pits as soon as you can.

The poor lady almost fell down after standing up once she got out of the car. Embarassed


Odd, i get the same feeling when i ride along with sean, maybe its just him! Wink

whenever i give some a ride along that isnt a normal track junky i periodically ask them......."you doing ok?, having fun?" to make sure they arent over there turning green ready to yack on me!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
M III Pilot
Post Whore


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1768
Location: Hollywood, FL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of quick spins around the track.

About how much time is R comps worth in comparison to street tires, everthing else remaning the same?
_________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/MIIIPilot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stack
Asphalt Ventures


Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1600
Location: New Bern, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M III Pilot wrote:
Speaking of quick spins around the track.

About how much time is R comps worth in comparison to street tires, everthing else remaning the same?




IF stock suspension and un-changed brakes:

Maybe 2 seconds depending on the track... but it will cost you dearly in consumables (tires, brake pads, fluids) because of increased stress (brakes will work harder (pads wear faster, fluid will boil sooner), suspension and bushings will take a beating, tires will wear out quick because the suspension will not be optimized for the tires.

You won't get the full benefit of r-comps until you a) can consistently drive at and slightly over the limit of street tires (including the likes of Azenis, BFG KDs, etc) AND b) you have the adjustability in your suspension to dial the car in to match what the tires want to do. r-comps like lots of camber, but until you can measure temps and adjust accordingly, you'll wear them out faster, and they'll fall off their performance quicker.
_________________
Stacy (Stack) King
Owner/Manager -- Asphalt Ventures ... www.asphaltventures.com[/i]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
M III Pilot
Post Whore


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1768
Location: Hollywood, FL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All makes sense but I didn't mean from a completely stock setup, I should have been more specific.

I meant more of a setup like I have, which is somewhat adjustable.
(H&R Sports, Bilstein Sports, R&D Sways, Adj Control Arms, Camber Plates)

Just though that it would be easier to make a comparison if everything remained the same.
I just need to get better camber plates since the ones I have suck and are already maxed at -1.7.

Still I was thinking it was more than 2 seconds, just kinda been toying with the idea of getting R-comps for my next set of track tires.

And just to get an opinion, is this what's meant by driving at the limits of the tires?
Either way I had fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ljCPFD_QzI
_________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/MIIIPilot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Eric1H
Training Wheeler


Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M III Pilot wrote:
All makes sense but I didn't mean from a completely stock setup, I should have been more specific.

I meant more of a setup like I have, which is somewhat adjustable.
(H&R Sports, Bilstein Sports, R&D Sways, Adj Control Arms, Camber Plates)

Just though that it would be easier to make a comparison if everything remained the same.
I just need to get better camber plates since the ones I have suck and are already maxed at -1.7.

Still I was thinking it was more than 2 seconds, just kinda been toying with the idea of getting R-comps for my next set of track tires.

And just to get an opinion, is this what's meant by driving at the limits of the tires?
Either way I had fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ljCPFD_QzI



So, IMHO there are 2 ways to drive at the limits of any tire.

1. consistently and smoothly
2. over drive and ask them to do more than they are designbed to handle.

Simply because the tires are slipping and sliding does not mean you are a better driver than the tires can handle, it may just mean you are asking them to do more than you should.

From watching the video it looks like youre having fun, and you do a good job sliding the car around, however..........
you could really gain a lot by being smoother on your inputs, and work on being consistent. you do a lot of hard stabs at the wheel. hard left then hard right, the smoother your inputs the more stable the car is going to be. turn to turn should be a smooth migration, you want the car to try and settle as much as possible before you apply much of any change, ie.......any more brakes, throttle or steering.

Obviously CMP is a bit of a challenge especially in the autoX section and when its 110 degrees outside! even R-comps wont help there.

how many track events have you done? One mistake new HPDE drivers make is to replace fast with better..........sure you can throw on R-comps and pick up 3 seconds driving poorly(not saying you were driving poorly lol), but you can also smooth out your driving and listen to what street tires are telling you and gain just as much if not more by working to become a better driver. R-comps are vert tempting for newer drivers, but holding back as long as you can will make you a much better faster driver in the long run.

I hope this helps and you don't take feel like i was overly critical.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Stack
Asphalt Ventures


Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1600
Location: New Bern, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

And just to get an opinion, is this what's meant by driving at the limits of the tires?
Either way I had fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ljCPFD_QzI


ehhh... kinda... but not exactly. What I'm talking about is being able to make the tires sing, but not wail in a tail-out drift, or snow plow understeer situation. You should be able to do this consistently through most turns, at most tracks, and be able to recover if you venture past the slip angle and lose grip. Just cause you can induce, and then catch oversteer, does not mean you're driving the car to its full potential as it sits now.

I'd recommend doing what I did, and not jump to r-comps, but move up gradually. All-season tires, dry-weather tires, then move to ultra-hp street tires... ala Azenis, BFG KDs, something with a treadwear rating in the 200 range. These will give you more grip then you currently have, but will still give you audible feedback, and ample warning before they let go completely (unlike most r-comps). This will fine tune your inner yaw sensor so when you do move to r-comps, the learning curve won't be so steep.


M III Pilot wrote:
All makes sense but I didn't mean from a completely stock setup, I should have been more specific.

I meant more of a setup like I have, which is somewhat adjustable.
(H&R Sports, Bilstein Sports, R&D Sways, Adj Control Arms, Camber Plates)

Just though that it would be easier to make a comparison if everything remained the same.
I just need to get better camber plates since the ones I have suck and are already maxed at -1.7.

Still I was thinking it was more than 2 seconds, just kinda been toying with the idea of getting R-comps for my next set of track tires.

_________________
Stacy (Stack) King
Owner/Manager -- Asphalt Ventures ... www.asphaltventures.com[/i]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
EvanM5
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 11388
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's already on a 200 treadwear summer tire, the Z212's, which are great. They do get awfully greasy after 3/4 of a session though.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Stack
Asphalt Ventures


Joined: 27 Sep 2006
Posts: 1600
Location: New Bern, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvanM325i wrote:
He's already on a 200 treadwear summer tire, the Z212's, which are great. They do get awfully greasy after 3/4 of a session though.


Maybe needs something with bigger tread blocks though... those 212's look more like an all-season to me. I considered those before going with the BFGs and they didn't look like much of a step up from the old 711's I was running.
_________________
Stacy (Stack) King
Owner/Manager -- Asphalt Ventures ... www.asphaltventures.com[/i]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger
EvanM5
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 11388
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stack wrote:

Maybe needs something with bigger tread blocks though... those 212's look more like an all-season to me. I considered those before going with the BFGs and they didn't look like much of a step up from the old 711's I was running.


They are a competitor for RE01R's and Falken 615's, definitely not an all season tire.


_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
M III Pilot
Post Whore


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1768
Location: Hollywood, FL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric1H wrote:
M III Pilot wrote:
All makes sense but I didn't mean from a completely stock setup, I should have been more specific.

I meant more of a setup like I have, which is somewhat adjustable.
(H&R Sports, Bilstein Sports, R&D Sways, Adj Control Arms, Camber Plates)

Just though that it would be easier to make a comparison if everything remained the same.
I just need to get better camber plates since the ones I have suck and are already maxed at -1.7.

Still I was thinking it was more than 2 seconds, just kinda been toying with the idea of getting R-comps for my next set of track tires.

And just to get an opinion, is this what's meant by driving at the limits of the tires?
Either way I had fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ljCPFD_QzI



So, IMHO there are 2 ways to drive at the limits of any tire.

1. consistently and smoothly
2. over drive and ask them to do more than they are designbed to handle.

Simply because the tires are slipping and sliding does not mean you are a better driver than the tires can handle, it may just mean you are asking them to do more than you should.

From watching the video it looks like youre having fun, and you do a good job sliding the car around, however..........
you could really gain a lot by being smoother on your inputs, and work on being consistent. you do a lot of hard stabs at the wheel. hard left then hard right, the smoother your inputs the more stable the car is going to be. turn to turn should be a smooth migration, you want the car to try and settle as much as possible before you apply much of any change, ie.......any more brakes, throttle or steering.

Obviously CMP is a bit of a challenge especially in the autoX section and when its 110 degrees outside! even R-comps wont help there.

how many track events have you done? One mistake new HPDE drivers make is to replace fast with better..........sure you can throw on R-comps and pick up 3 seconds driving poorly(not saying you were driving poorly lol), but you can also smooth out your driving and listen to what street tires are telling you and gain just as much if not more by working to become a better driver. R-comps are vert tempting for newer drivers, but holding back as long as you can will make you a much better faster driver in the long run.

I hope this helps and you don't take feel like i was overly critical.

No not at all, that's why I posted the question.

That's my 9th track event if memory serves (1st @ CMP, & VIR is home), and like you pointed out it was abrubt since I was trying to slide, it really isn't the best example of my driving.
This is a better example good or bad, but it's a 90 mb DL
http://www.nceuromotorsports.com/video/NCEURO%20LeadFollow@CMPAug5.wmv

Just thinking outloud, and appreciate the input of others that know more than me.
_________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/MIIIPilot


Last edited by M III Pilot on Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
M III Pilot
Post Whore


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1768
Location: Hollywood, FL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stack wrote:
Quote:

And just to get an opinion, is this what's meant by driving at the limits of the tires?
Either way I had fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ljCPFD_QzI


ehhh... kinda... but not exactly. What I'm talking about is being able to make the tires sing, but not wail in a tail-out drift, or snow plow understeer situation. You should be able to do this consistently through most turns, at most tracks, and be able to recover if you venture past the slip angle and lose grip. Just cause you can induce, and then catch oversteer, does not mean you're driving the car to its full potential as it sits now.

I'd recommend doing what I did, and not jump to r-comps, but move up gradually. All-season tires, dry-weather tires, then move to ultra-hp street tires... ala Azenis, BFG KDs, something with a treadwear rating in the 200 range. These will give you more grip then you currently have, but will still give you audible feedback, and ample warning before they let go completely (unlike most r-comps). This will fine tune your inner yaw sensor so when you do move to r-comps, the learning curve won't be so steep.

Like Evan mentioned I'm already on those summer tires, and just thinking about when I should go to the Rs.

I had pretty much already decided to run street tires one more time, and then revisit the issue after and see where I was.
I'm not rushing headlong looking to be the fastest, but to me it feels like the tires are limiting me, but that may be a good thing cuz I know I'm not the smoothest with my inputs.
_________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/MIIIPilot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Eric1H
Training Wheeler


Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 69
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you need to add wmv to the end of the above link, I am downloading yours and Evans as we speak, I'll look them over and give feedback.


Sliding sure if fun, but as I am sure you know its not the fastest way around a track and is really hard on tires(a good way to overheat them and in turn make them even slicker! hehe
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
M III Pilot
Post Whore


Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 1768
Location: Hollywood, FL

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric1H wrote:
you need to add wmv to the end of the above link, I am downloading yours and Evans as we speak, I'll look them over and give feedback.


Sliding sure if fun, but as I am sure you know its not the fastest way around a track and is really hard on tires(a good way to overheat them and in turn make them even slicker! hehe

I just noticed and done, thanks! Very Happy

Yup not the quick way, that was the last session Sunday so I went out just to play.
_________________

http://www.youtube.com/user/MIIIPilot
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    nceuro.org Forum Index -> Track Events All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 6 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group